My issue with the “patriarchy” movement is not with the TRUE Biblical teachings of fathers’ roles in their homes, but with their new “enlightened” or “presuppositional” view that is being taught and promoted today….When the average conservative person hears the word “feminist” he thinks of a bra-burning, baby-aborting Jezebel screaming for equal rights. Labeling someone a feminist who disagrees with what the patriocentrists now assume are “presuppositional” truths, paints a picture that will guarantee the sought after reaction….discerning Christians will recognize this for what it is and nothing more, extravagant claims made to incite the audience.” Listen here for this weeks podcast entitled “Thatmom’s History of Patriarchy in the Homeschooling Community.”
thatmom
real encouragement for real homeschooling momsseptember 7 podcast
62 Comments »
Okay, this was a FANTASTIC podcast! I admire the work you’ve put in. You’ve obviously done your research. I admire the courage it took to actually name names! Its about time, don’t you think?
This was absolutely wonderful and I can’t wait for the next installment.
Great podcast, Karen. It was nice to put a voice with your face, too. You mentioned the double standard for women like Elisabeth Elliott and Phyllis Shlafly in patriocentric circles. I’d add Mrs. Paige Patterson to that. Paige Patterson makes no secret of his belief that women belong in the home, period … yet his wife, Dorothy, is paid a salary to work outside the home and teach a homemaking course to women at Southwestern Baptist Thelogical Seminary. I guess if you tickle these patriachalists’ ears and say what they want to hear, you get a free pass no matter what your actions are.
Thank you, Karen. You did an excellent job of articulating the issues many of us have with patriarchy. I wish I could have heard this two years ago!
Will you be addressing “Where do we go from here?” type questions at the end of your series? As in how we might help bring about a more balanced perspective into the homeschooling community? Or is that not a realistic goal at this point since the patriarchy position is so polarizing?
Looking forward to the rest of your series of podcasts!
I’ve been looking forward to this first installment since I first heard about it. I just listened-it was the first podcast I’ve ever heard. Very well done.
I’m thankful that you have the courage, as someone else mentioned above, to name names. We need to hear who these people are and what they’re saying. I’ve been extricating myself from these teachings for awhile now, but podcasts like this only prove what I was feeling in my gut-that this stuff isn’t what biblical Christianity is all about after all.
Thank you for the time you spent doing this. I look forward to next Friday. 
Excellent work Karen. A much needed analysis from a woman who takes her Bible and her family seriously.
Karen,
Thank you for taking on this project. We need more people like you who are willing to spend the time and who are willing to put their necks on the chopping block in order to break the silence. I have had many women whisper to me at these homeschooling conferences, asking me if I find some of this stuff a little “extreme”. There are people who need to know they are not alone. It is not the world thatis blinding us but it is scripture which doesn’t allow us to use it for our own agendas.
Fascinating podcast. I’ve been away from the homeschooling movement for many years and if the truth be told, my wife did the homeschooling. She had the gift of teaching children; I did not.
I do believe Biblical patriarchy disappeared in the last 3 or 4 decades and it’s re-appearance is probably a response to the feminist agenda.
But there’s always a tension; patriarchy is easily manipulated by those who are, at heart, “control freaks.” It can be, and is, corrupted by those who wish to rule versus wish to be what God calls them to be.
I believe I’ve been less patriarchal than I should have been but I’ve also always been to lazy to be a control freak. (I do think you should ALWAYS park facing outward from a parking space however. My family long ago sickened of my standard and NONE of them do anything other than pull into a parking space head first. sigh)
Finally, in May my daughter graduated from a secular university and decided, against what I and my wife thought was wisest, to remain where she is living in an apartment with her girlfriend – who’s about to get married. For monetary reasons and for reasons of safety and security I wish she was living at home but her will in this matter is more determined than mine. So she remains.
God will surely hold me accountable where I have failed as spiritual leader of the family. But the family too will answer to God for their failures.
Patriarchy I find to be an uncomfortable, but God given, burden.
Jb, I would ask you to consider that perhaps patriarchy is not God-given, but rather a sinful result of the fall. (See Gen 3:16) God gave you a wife (ezer, helper, same word as used for God 20-some times in the OT), to share your burden, not make it bigger.
[...] at thatmom.com has uploaded the first podcast in her patriarchy series. She also recently announced that there would be podcasts in September AND October to get through [...]
A conservative reading of Genesis pretty clearly establishes patriarchy before the fall.
Also to be considered; within the Trinity there are roles; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I think the question is; what kind of patriarch will a man be? Wise or foolish.
SIDENOTE: Wayne Grudem, pre-eminent conservative theologian and complimentarian, left a top tier seminary for a secondary tier seminary because it was best for his wife’s health. I think that is proper patriarchy.
[...] Shauna Categories: podcasts and issues I listened to the first in a series of podcasts at Thatmom, in which Karen discusses the uber-patriarchy or “patriocentric” movement, [...]
I just found your site last night. Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to encourage homeschooling families. I look forward to listening to more of your podcasts.
Finally got a chance to listen to this. THANK YOU. Again, I really think this is a reaction against the culture at large.
I’ve stopped receiving Vision Forum material. Since I homeschool in Colorado, I still receive the Christian Home Educators of Colorado magazine, but I’m thinking of cancelling it.
Honestly, the patriarchy movement makes me depressed and feel like a failure. I submit to my husband, I want him to lead, but I also want to educate my daughter and teach my sons that the world does not revolve around them just because they are men. So much of patriarchy reminds me of radical Islam and their treatment of women.
Great job, Karen! I’m waiting with great anticipation to hear the rest of the presentations.
I think it is worth noting, based on a comment or two here, that no one is challenging submission of a wife to her husband, the blessings of moms staying at home to minister to their families or the blessings of godly husbands and fathers. It is the rigid and narrow interpretation of acceptable Christian behavior on behalf of those who claim that their definition and standards of what they have termed “Biblical Patriarchy” as the only acceptable standard of faithful Christian conduct.
For questioning or criticizing interpretations of certain Scriptures (say for instance, those who challenge Grudem’s concept of God as inseparable from that of gender roles and relationships), many conservative, God-fearing and loving devoted Christians are deemed “feminists” and nefarious enemies within the Christian camp. Rather than esteem those who exercize their Christian liberty in a different manner in Christian love and respect from those different members of the body of Christ, so many of the “patriarchs” level insults and inapplicable descriptors. Their standards are prescribed by many as a non-optional cure for the disease of sin and secular culture with equal significance to that of the Scriptures. It is the sarcedotalism of these self-established authorities that many here question, not loving conduct in marriage and family or the celebration of the blessings of children.
I hope these get named on your podcasts. I don’t only want to know who NOT to support, but who TO support!
Ah, my cut and paste didn’t go thru! I’d like to know the names of the speakers who have been
blackballed so I know who to support.
Re: Canada
(Thanks for the warm welcome.)
I am in eastern Canada and homeschooling itself is not overly common. Our problem tends to be more the opposite – almost all children are in public schools and the mothers are working. The west is more into homeschooling and they seem more likely to embrace the patriarchal movement (and influence others).
Re: geography
I agree. I think it goes back to the different kinds of people who immigrated to North America in the first place – and the differences in Americans and Canadians. In Canada itself, the more pioneer-type people traveled west. The people in Eastern Canada seem to be more trusting and perhaps naive.
Karen,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this. It was very well presented, articulate and in fact I think I might listen to it once more! To me, it is just amazing that some people would twist scripture so much to promote their own agenda and make it an either-or tactics. Either you are a home staying-mother of ten working for your husbands vision OR you are a college going feminist with 3 abortions to your name.
This offends and saddens me. Once again let me say, Great Job!! Looking forward to next week’s episode.
NCHE (North Carolinians for Home Education) would be one of those 30 I’d imagine.
DP and VF were the keynote speakers 3 years ago I think…however….they showed themselves so badly and made so many people angry, I doubt they’ll ever be invited back to speak. They still have a booth, but I don’t think will ever get an invite to speak again. (and this info came to me thru someone in the know and serving in the NCHE leadership!)
Yes, I love Sally Clarkson’s books.
I also would like to know how DP showed badly. I hope Lindsey checks back here and tells us more!
And I agree with you-I do think the Patrios like the idea of pre-civil war southern women. I have observed this as well.
Can’t wait till Friday!
Our radical liberal (government-funded) media has done a fine job painting the US in a bad light. And people believe it, even though their lifestyles are “American”.
I almost said in my last comment that the patriarchal movement is coming from the south.
In my area, religion is not taken to the “cultish” extent that it is in the south and other areas.
Hey y’all…only got a second but I’ll do my best to explain it in a nutshell.
Basically, when Dougie and his clan showed up at NCHE as the keynotes that year, they did the hyperpatriarchy stuff just as they’re doing now.
Yes, *some* homeschoolers are into that, but some homeschoolers are NOT either. He greatly offended some Catholic homeschooling friends of mine with his comments about Catholics (not saved, will go to h*ll, same ole stuff DP and many conservative preachers spout off at the mouth, especially in the south)
Besides the Catholic homeschoolers, he put off other people by his souped up standards. He was quite into the “visionary leader” thing then and his League of Grateful Sons movie had just come out. It was all about “women and children first” and how men were the protectors of their women. Which, is a good thing unless you put a negative spin on it.
Anyhow, so many people complained to the NCHE staff and board, that I was told he would never be invited back again as a speaker. He has still sent a booth and people to staff it the past 2 years, but he has not had workshop/speaking invites anymore, and I doubt he ever will.
Word is spreading quick about his activities and cult-like thoughts and theology. I think as one commenter said here or somewhere else (sorry, I read alot!) we as the homeschool community have begun policing our own so to speak—I certainly do NOT want Doug Phillips or VF being the mouthpiece that represents who I am, why I homeschool, and so on.
So that is it in a nutshell. Over the top theology and Catholic bashing.
Does anyone know if David Quine is one of those “blacklisted” speakers? I had enjoyed his emphasis on becoming “by faith families” in his talks. However, this past year he didn’t even had a booth at the Colorado convention (that I am aware of). When I mentioned this to a friend who is influential in deciding on the speakers for her state convention (not Colorado), she replied that they wouldn’t ask him to come since he has written some curriculum that “caused a friend’s children to turn away from God”. She wouldn’t give any other explanations, so I guess I have missed something over the years. I remember him as being a gentle, Godly, encouraging homeschooling father.
I had enjoyed Diana Waring, too, but I don’t remember seeing her the past few conventions, either.
I read on another blog that some states have smaller homeschooling conventions that are run by more “moderate” (not patriarchal) homeschoolers. I think I’ll be looking around for something like that next summer!
By the way, when I received the Colorado CHEC news magazine recently, it said that Doug Phillips was to be the featured speaker for the convention next year.
Previous statement should read: “it said that Doug Phillips was to be a featured speaker”… I don’t recall if he was to be the main speaker.
I am looking forward to the next podcast- this last one was excellent.
One thing that strikes me as I ponder this patriocentric movement is that there is a certain mean-spirited aspect to it– at least towards anyone who differs from the patriocentric “norm.”
I saw a Jennie Chauncey clip on the “Visionary Daughters” site in which she dismisses all daycare workers as “brainless”. Whatever one’s view on daycare, I think that all reasonable people can agree that 1) not all daycare workers are “brainless” (full disclosure: my sister works in a preschool and is both very smart, creative and dedicated to her young charges) and 2) it is just plain hateful and demeaning to call a group of people “brainless.” By her namecalling, she has arrogantly proclaimed that she believes they have some subhuman status. Is it not possible for her to express her anti-daycare views without the nastiness? It strikes me as profoundly un-Christian, and yet, this type of namecalling and denigration of people whose views are not completely in accord with the anointed patriocentrists appears to be common.
Hey, I was a preschool teacher for several years before I got married. Then I had a small daycare in my home for a few years. I do not consider myself to be “brainless”!!!
When I was following those teachings, I felt very inferior to those people. I didn’t dress my girls in homemade look-alike dresses, my dh doesn’t lead us in family devotions, we watch mainstream movies and we own a t.v., we stopped having children after number five came along, (in 6 1/2 years) etc. If a woman is sensitive, they can definitely make you feel like you are a second class Christian if you are not completely in their camp. At least I felt that way.
Well, when I was a preschool teacher I walked away most days feeling BRAIN DEAD! Two year olds will do that to ya!
(just kidding…)
I say that to agree wholeheartedly with the name calling. It is ugly and unkind. They won’t use flat out curse words, but terms like harlot, jezebel, abortion-loving-feminists, brainless, etc are just as bad, if not worse if you ask me.
It is like the “christian” equivalent of slander. Since we as Christians aren’t supposed to engage in such things, we make it look more lovely by using words like jezebel found in the Bible.
“Have any of you ever heard of there being problems with having a woman as a keynote speaker for a homeschooling conference? I have heard of this and I know there are some people in these camps who believe women should never teach men, even outside the church setting. I have even heard of there being a problem with a woman praying in public at a homeschooling conference. just curious if anyone else has heard of this.”
I’ve spoken at several home school events in the past. Almost every time, I had someone come up and rebuke or condemn me because I was a “young woman” teaching others. All I was doing, usually, was talking about life as a home school grad and the choices available to you (egads, maybe higher education). One group even got a complaint about me because I characterized one school of thought as saying girls should stay home and knit (it was in jest, too, but some people see persecution around every corner).
On the other side of the coin, I also would have people tell me that they were glad to see motivate young women and appreciated that I was willing to speak. Once, I even had a gentleman tell me that he was very upset when he saw that I was a young woman giving a workshop, but after listening to it, he changed his mind because I had good things to say and was theologically grounded.
I’m not even sure how I ended up here, but I look forward to listening to the podcasts as time permits. I just wanted to make two comments and hope neither stir the pot.
First, Diana Waring is awesome! I have heard her at a few different conferences (we are sort of groupies) and have always been encouraged and inspired by her speaking and her materials. She is deep waters.
Second, from what I have read thus far here, and elsewhere, on this subject I would offer the caution of watching the line between critique and attack. As Christians we are already warned to “study to show ourselves approved unto God” and to “search the Scriptures”. Many of those who have been “named” have some things that are good, but they are just men and we need to remember, that we are accountable to God for our actions and beliefs, not to (a) man. My husband often says, “Take what is good and leave the rest.” Such should be our approach to all man’s teachings, even on Scripture.
Wonderful podcast! I applaud you in your effort to test all things by God’s word!
I cannot tell you here how much this movement has affected me and hurt me. I cannot put it all down here right now. I am so glad that someone has been so bold as to come out and say this. We have to be concerned when so many act as if they have the corner on what the bible says about raising our families. I do agree that I was originally drawn to it out of the desire to create a perfect paradigm for my family. Can you give me tips on addressing this on my blog to help spread the message. I have almost been afraid to do so, because others may misunderstand and think I am feminist and do not hold traditional views for the home. Thanks for doing this. I hope you will put the completed podcast out on CD.
Karen, How did the body of Christ get so far from the essentials? Is it an innate desire in much of humankind to want to control and rule over others? I am convinced that this behavior is an historical pattern and definitely cyclic. I am sooo glad that you, Cheryl Schatz and others are shining the floodlight of Scripture on patriocentrism, hierarchalism, and other aberrant ideologies which have no sound doctrinal basis whatsoever. We have infallible truth in God’s word as revealed in the original autographs and languages. What we do not have however is inerrant translation or interpretation on issues aside from faith in Christ and Christ alone. Keep the podcasts going and exposing aberrant teachings for what they are!
Greg Anderson
This movement of uberpatriarchy (my favorite term) is creeping into churches. It is very dangerous and legalistic. It also causes people to be very judgmental and pharisaical. I was given a lengthy letter by a lady in my church detailing how my choice to not have more children was the equivalent of committing adultery against my husband. I was condemned and cornered; labeled a sinner and urged to repent and change. As if this isn’t bad enough, I am a wife of one of the pastors. This woman did not take her issues up with our elders (since our church definitely doesn’t buy this stuff), nor did she seek out older, godly women to teach her, instead she turned to the internet. Once convinced (not by our church’s teaching or by the confessions our church stands by, but by some internet sites) she bombarded me and hurt me with all this legalism. I truly believe that in this day and age bizarre theologies can spread over the internet fast and furious–with no guidance from ministers, elders, older women, or even husbands! We ought to caution young women against becoming absorbed in cyber-theology — where one can create contacts, chat rooms, blogs, websites, discussions, and in essence electronic families and internet churches that usurp the tangible, real, flesh-and-blood relationships that ought to be primary.
Whew, that was a mouthful, sorry!
- Concerned in Southern California
Wow! And…. WOW!!!
Thank you for this information.
My hubby and I attended APACHE in Illinois a few years back (or longer) and listened to DP. I was looking at my husband and wrote a note to him saying, “what is this guy’s deal?” It was just odd and left me feeling…. odd.
Someone shared: “I also know that some speakers you and I would think are terrific and normal in their approach to family life have been blackballed and even told that they aren’t good examples of godly homeschoolers because they sent daughters to college.”
That is so sad. What horrible discrimination and it’s ridiculous.
I’m a mother to three daughters.
My husband and I are most definitely encouraging college. Do they “have” to have a college education? No. Still… I encourage them to have a degree.
I am a registered nurse and BSN and work per diem. It’s fabulous! I can be a nurse and MINISTER to others and be wife, mom and homeschool teacher. My husband is supportive and helpful is the reason this works for us.
Looking forward to listening more!
[...] if you are just now joining me for these podcasts, I would suggest that you go back to the Introduction to Patriocentricity podcast from September 7th and begin there. You can also find the podcast archives at [...]
[...] Patriarchy and complemenatianism as a “plumb line” for determining that which is truly Christian (and other views as less or possibly sub-Christian) Commonly held belief [...]
Your comment
HTML-Tags:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <pre> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>
This podcast was uploaded all of 10 minutes when I learned that Doug Phillips had changed his wording on his blog to read “anti-complimentarian” rather than “complementarian.” That being said, it really doesn’t matter because the teachings of patriarchy he espouses are NOT complementarian anyway.