real encouragement for real homeschooling moms
October 1, 2007 at 6:12 pm
· Filed under Uncategorized
One of my readers, Jo, left a comment under the thread on grace in parenting and I felt that I needed to respond to her by telling her my own story, which is too long for a comment box. So here is her comment and here is my response.
Jo said:
“Okay, now the rubber is really hitting the road.
I loathe that book by Clay Clarkson. It is so unbiblical. God commands parents to use the rod in discipling their children. The Clarksons and others like them consider that to be abusive, and so this whole grace-based parenting stuff is going around.
I will not continue reading this blog if you support that unbiblical parenting style.
How disappointing. If you are against spanking, please say so. I need to know.”
And here is my response:
Dear Jo,
I will share with you as honestly as I can what my personal convictions are on disciplining and discipling children.
My husband and I have 6 children and 7 grandchildren with another one coming next week. It is an interesting thing about being a grandparent….you are able to watch your children parent their children and sometimes you see in them your own self, for good or for bad.
You also see living proof of your theology.
While we were raising our children, we spanked. Frankly, neither my husband or I had ever thought much about it, it was just something we did because it was expected as part of being a good mom and dad. When our oldest was about 6 or 7, our church showed the Dr. Dobson series and we embrace many of the things he taught about spanking and discipline. However, during that time, the parenting book that influenced me the most was Children are Wet Cement by Anne Ortlund and to this day, I believe that the core message she teaches is how I raised my children. Her book is not a how-to, only a series of short stories and comments about relationship building and painting a vision for our children of how God might want to use them for His own glory and in His Kingdom. The Lord used her writings to speak to my heart and I purposed to instill basic Biblical truths in my children while they were young and to build a close relationship with each of them.
A few years later when we began homeschooling, we were introduced to the belief that spanking is commanded in Scripture and the concept that a truly Godly parent will spank a child until there is evidence of repentance. I read Richard Fugate’s book where he talks about spanking a child with the rod until they are repentant and I began to think that that was the true Biblical approach to discipline. (I shudder at this today.) But, while we continued to spank, my husband thought that the teachings of Fugate were extreme and severe and would not use excessive force on our children. (My husband’s method was more psychological, taking them down the basement, pulling out the paddle from its special spot, talking to them about the wrong they had done, telling them how they would make it right with the offended parties, and giving a firm swat or two on the bottom.)
Years went by, our children grew beyond the spanking years, and the older ones married. As my daughter began having little ones, she often shared with me some of the things she was reading and one of the topics was discipline. One day, a friend of hers wrote just a small article on her blog that, again, the Lord used to speak to my heart. She was sharing about her relationship with her little toddler and she made a statement that went something like this: “Not only did I realize she is my daughter, but she is also my sister in Christ.” It was a watershed moment for me and I believe the Lord used that comment to open my eyes to many things within the body of Christ but especially how we relate to children.
Just before this time, we had struggled through some very deep waters in regards to church life. We had experienced some of the worst that church leadership can offer. We witnessed people being spiritually abused in ways that broke our hearts. We saw leadership arrogantly proclaim that they weren’t accountable to anyone else. We also saw “church discipline” wielded as a tool to bring people into compliance with man’s standards rather than God’s word. We saw anything but grace being lived in the lives of others.
But, as is often the case, God used those horrible times to teach me about Himself. He drew me to the throne of God’s grace. Little by little I began to realize that loving my neighbor as myself and obeying the one anothers of Scripture applied to my children, first and foremost as a homeschooling mom and then to the rest of the body of Christ. I began to see that if I am a sinner saved only by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, that is also the only hope for any of us. It is only God’s grace that covers my sins and it is only God’s grace that covers anyone’s sins, including those of my children.
I began to look at each of those one anothers of Scripture in a new way and found myself asking “How does this apply to relationship building with my children?” I read through the New Testament and through the book of Acts and read as though I was reading it all for the very first time. I took note of how Jesus responded to those who sincerely came to him in repentance. He forgave them and said “Go and sin no more.” He didn’t exact some sort of punishment on them. Of course, there were often natural consequences, but God also gives people grace to accept and address those consequences and experiencing consequences and learning from them is one way we grow in God’s grace.
I also realized that Jesus’ harshest words were for the Pharisees, those who took God’s word and added to it, making rules that placed terrific burdens on the backs of others. I asked myself “Do I do that to other people?” “Do I do that to children?” I began to see that even though I might not appear to be one outwardly, inwardly I was capable of acting like a Pharisee all the time. I had my own list of do’s and don’ts, especially with my own children. I had my own list of acceptable dress, behavior, etc. that went beyond what the Bible teaches. And the worst thing was that I was very capable of having expectations on others that I wasn’t expecting of myself.
As I began to think through the application of the one anothers in Scripture, realizing that they all apply to all Christians toward each other, husband and wife, parent and child, elder and church members, etc., I started to realize how much of how we relate to children violates these one anothers. ( I have shared many examples of applying the one anothers on this blog. Go back and look at the one anothering blog entries or listen to the two podcasts on this topic.)
So, Jo, I know this is a long answer to your question and I hope I have answered it for you. I believe that each parent must decide about discipline based on what she believes the Word of God instructs her to do. There are verses in Proverbs that talk about spanking, even beating, a child. I do not see them as commands. In the New Testament, I see no such command and, really, very little teaching specifically on raising children. However, I do see the one anothers of God’s word as being commands that apply to all relationships.
Last week I read a quote and referenced it in regards to patriocentricity but I think it applies to this topic, too. In looking at Scripture, the concept that “the main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things” teaches us that we need to concentrate on what the Bible teaches and says very plainly and commands us to do. One of my goals on this blog is to concentrate on those areas in regards to homeschooling and to grant the liberty to others to think differently on a variety of topics that aren’t so easily applied. Sometimes I have a soapbox but mostly I want to dwell on the application of the “main and plain things.” I hope you are not so offended that you won’t come back and I sincerely thank you for expressing your beliefs and opinions. Only when we have gracious discourse can we learn from one another.
Permalink
Kim wrote @ October 1, 2007 at 6:43 pm
In our family, spanking has been an effective tool. The kids usually know when one is coming, because spanking is reserved for serious offenses. However spanking is pretty rare these days….especially since our youngest is now eight years old. It really shouldn’t be an either you spank or you don’t. Discipline is to be applied lovingly and with wisdom. The kids know they are loved and forgiven and that’s what’s important. I think that even though we have spanked our kids, they would be the first to tell you that our home is ruled by grace and love.
anthea wrote @ October 1, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Karen, I appreciate you posting on this. As usual you have some great insights. It is vital to point back to the bible in everything.
I would question the use of the article to which you linked. The lady attacked the necessity for sharing the gospel with our children.Eh? (My response as a proper Cockney geeza) She also sneers at bible-believing Christians by using a silly nickname — so not much grace there, then…
I would rather read *your* words, Karen, to be honest.
Anthea
thatmom wrote @ October 1, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Kim, you are absolutely correct. The emphasis must be on applying discipline lovingly and with wisdom, showing grace and love no matter what.
thatmom wrote @ October 1, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Anthea,
I didn’t get the impression that the woman who wrote the article was saying presenting the Gospel to our children isn’t important. Rather, I think she was making the point that sometimes people dismiss their younger children, assuming they aren’t saved.
I remember when I first considered this thought. We were reading through G.I. Williamson’s commentary on the confessions and the discussion came to mentally handicapped people. Can they be saved? How? And what about babies or unborn children?
I believe that the Holy Spirit regenerates spiritually, not just through a mind that reasons. This is what I believe we learn from the story of John the Baptist and his “leaping in his mother’s womb, in response to the impending birth of Christ. The Holy Spirit will come upon someone at the time He chooses.
I also remember an interesting story my mom told me. One day we were discussing her own childhood and she told me the story of when she was about 2 1/2 or 3. She was with my grandmother at an evangelistic meeting and my mom says she remembers very distinctly sensing the spirit of God coming upon her. She says it brought her a tremendous sense of peace and she believes that that is when she was regenerated. It was during the preaching of the sermon and she has no recollection at all as to the text of the message.
My husband has a similar story. He was not raised in a Christian home but when he was a small child, he remembers watching that old clamation show for kids called Davey and Goliath. He knows that the Lord used the Gospel message on that show to bring him to Christ, though he had had no spiritual training.
All that to say, absolutely we must present the Gospel message to our children, daily and both in word and in deed. And w also need to be careful to not assume they are not saved because they are little or in our assumptions that they are little heathens, we place doubts in their minds and hearts of their own salvation. There must be a balance there.
Kim wrote @ October 1, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Hi again, I was just reminded about an article by Andree Seu from World Magazine about delight. It helped me to realize that when I delight in my children, they know it and it covers a lot. Even though I’m not the “perfect” mom! Here is a link to the article. I thought you all would enjoy it if you haven’t seen it….
http:/worldmag.com/articles/13339
I hope this link works…..(I am kind of techno challenged). If it doesn’t work, it is in the archives under Andree Seu from September 22, 2007 worldmag.com
corriejo wrote @ October 2, 2007 at 6:17 am
Karen,
Great post. I agree that the thought of our daughters and sons being our brothers and sisters in Christ is very sobering.
” There are verses in Proverbs that talk about spanking, even beating, a child.”
Actually there are a quite a few verses in Proverbs about the rod being for the backside of a fool but I don’t see people taking these verses as a command. Why are we not beating these fools with the rod?
I like the Clarkson’s books. I appreciate their heart for children. I do not think it a command to spank our children. As long as we train them and discipline them (and discipline is not primarily spanking) and teach them the ways of God and use His word to rebuke, correct and train them in righteousness, I don’t see that a rod is always necessary.
It would seem like the word of God is a far better tool than the rod for training, teaching and correcting, especially when it tells us this very thing in 2 Tim. 3:16.
I am not anti-spanking but I do think it should be reserved for serious disciplinary issues and as a last resort. I gleened a lot for Clay Clarkson’s book even though I may not arrived at the same place as he did.
I am shocked when I hear some of the methods people use in order to train a baby to sit still on a blanket so they can have a visit with friends. I cannot imagine using the rod so casually for a non-disciplinary reason.
I especially do not see this as an issue to seprate over nor do I think it is a litmus test for a true and God-fearing believer.
jo wrote @ October 2, 2007 at 11:08 am
Thank you Karen, for your very gracious answer.
I still disagree with grace parenting-the whole thing smacks of political correctness. Spanking has been the standard for parenting for thousands of years. I see no reason to change things now.
Like the commenter above, my children are older now and we rarely use that form of discipline any longer. Both dh and I have close relationships with our children so it hasn’t done our family any harm.
I’d like to finish your patriarchy series but then will most likely leave your blog.
I do appreciate your gracious response though. Thank you.
thatmom wrote @ October 2, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Corrie, you are a student of the Word and I know you spend much time in research and study….do you have any insights on the word “rod” as used in the OT?
For those who are interested, here are several links to the history of spanking and the use of the word “rod” in the OT:
http://aolff.com/?page_id=14
http://www.parentingdecisions.com/sufferthelittlechildren7.htm
http://www.parentingdecisions.com/sufferthelittlechildren2.htm
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp
(Scroll down to #6 on this one)
Sorry, I don’t know html or I would’ve made these look prettier. 
Shauna wrote @ October 3, 2007 at 12:57 am
In what way is extending grace to children as our Father extends grace to us “political correctness”?
anthea wrote @ October 3, 2007 at 1:15 am
Hello Karen
My reply is delayed because of the time difference between the US and the UK. You know, I don’t think everyone on the web is as spiritually or emotionally mature as you and Spunky. There are some bloggers who are like the Pharisee who thanks God that ” I am not as that man”. (This aspect of legalism is often overlooked.) So, what you get from some ladies is “I am so much more loving and caring than those parents because I don’t spank — I’ve found the magic bullet!” or “I am so much much more selfless and spiritually rigorous than those parents, because I do spank — I’ve found the magic bullet!”
One UK Christian observed that the term ‘Grace-based Parenting’ is deeply offensive to other Christians. It implies that parents who do not follow the set path are devoid of tenderness and extend no grace to their children. Eh? Most Christians over here have not even heard the term, so how could we ever keep to the rules of this new parenting gospel?
Your broadcasts and posts are a real find for me because they drive us back to Scripture, when we women can be led by our emotions or by our peer group instead.Your description of how God has led you as a mother shows that there is *no* magic bullet outside of the Bible.
So, although I seek out books, mp3s and articles on mothering, I asses what I’m reading quite carefully. If a blog posting is all about how much better “we” are than “those people”, it’s a red flag for me. In contrast, your comments are about what Biblical principles can reveal to us. Even though your current series of podcasts is investigating troubling things, you are fair in the way you comment. I always sense that you know these are your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
BTW, the best part of the podcast is the way you read out the Bible verse at the beginning of each show. You could end it right there and I would still learn something!
Best Wishes
Anthea
corriejo wrote @ October 3, 2007 at 3:44 am
Hi Thatmom,
I will get back to you on that.
I do have some insights on some other methods of discipline that have just come to mind.
I was on one patriarchal type wives’ list and the discussion turned to women who slapped their children in the face as a method of discipline. I was horrified. Not only is that practice demeaning but it is abusive and unbiblical. I waited for someone, like one of the moderators, to rebuke these women. No one did. So, I couldn’t sit and stay silent and let others think that slapping the faces of our children is acceptable so I stepped into the discussion.
I said this is NOT biblical discipline and we never see this sort of thing in the Bible. I think I said it was abusive and shameful and humiliating for the child.
I received several “Amens” behind the scenes but no one dared to speak up because they were too afraid to speak up and agree with me.
I then received a letter from one of the moderators telling me that I was judgmental and that this is just one of the many tools available for parents to use.
I was shocked, to say the least.
I was sickened to think that women who should be Titus 2 women were sitting there silently and passively allowing these women to talk about slapping their childrens’ faces as if it was no big deal. I was stunned that I was the one getting rebuked for being judgmental.
Needless to say, I had to leave that list. I just couldn’t take that sort of thing anymore and I realized I was fighting a losing battle. I felt that all reasonableness and wisdom were not to be found.
It broke my heart to read those comments about mothers slapping their childrens’ faces as biblical discipline.
So, this is one method or “tool” that is not in line with sound biblical principles.
thatmom wrote @ October 3, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Anthea,
I have never thought of the phrase “grace-based” being some sort of paradigm, just a description of how we ought to parent if God parents us in the same way.
I am curious about something else….are you seeing this hyper-patriarchy/patriocentricity movement in the UK? I know it is big in homeschooling circles in New Zealand but I am wondering how many other countries are seeing this.
We had a missions conference at our church this week and it has struck me how non-globally much of these teachings can be applied.
What are your thoughts?
thatmom wrote @ October 3, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Corrie,
That face slapping story is horrendous. I cannot imagine anyone thinking that is acceptable behavior for disciplining a child! Three cheers for you for saying something about it!
anthea wrote @ October 6, 2007 at 1:56 am
Hello Karen
I am curious myself about whether or not this movement is around in the UK. I have only been a mother for 4 and a bit years, so I am not plugged in to all the home educating groups and so on. I do belong to a message board for UK Christian home educators. I like searching out good websites and books, etc.
My initial impressions are these: We have state-run Church schools. There is a lack of knowledge about home education. In addition , it’s a big financial sacrifice to have one parent stay home and have “home grown kids”. So the home ed communityhere is small. We simply must stick together as we need each other!
The government in New Zealand gives parents money for home educating, so I suppose it’s a larger community there.
We have lots of imported reading matter, and some of it seems to contain some elements of the patriarchy movement. I wonder if the magazines and books that we UK home edders read are exposing us to extreme or unbalanced views.
For this reason, I am looking forward to the book reviews in your podcasts.
Anthea
HTML-Tags:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>
