43 Comments »

  Kathleen (Kate) wrote @ January 27, 2008 at 2:43 am

Karen, Corrie –

This is good news to hear about your perspectives being given, as I’ve come to so appreciate your insights on motherhood, marriage, and being a berean.

Since the authors of those books don’t seem to want to step back and take constructive criticism or to be sharpened in their abilities to even discern their own convictions as being true or false according to the Scriptures, it’s probably just as well that their books and ideas soon disappear into obscurity.

Let the Word of God richly dwell in our hearts, and let our lives (women, single, married, mothers, daughters and men of all ages, too) be the fragrance of Jesus in all that we do.

  Rebecca wrote @ January 28, 2008 at 12:42 am

“…things we wish we had known back in the days before we had, collectively, 16 children, nearly 9 grandchildren, and husbands!”

Thank goodness for commas, or we’d all think you had had nearly 9 husbands between you! Hahaha.

I’m really looking forward to that podcast.

  Johanna wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 12:48 am

I will admit to being disappointed as I have some questions/concerns about this book and was curious if you would raise those same issues in your review. I do, however, certainly understand your reasoning. Looking forward to future podcasts!

  Wilma wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 9:22 am

What? You can only conclude that the authors were not sincere in their offer to be interviewed? Were they given a chance to be interviewed? I understand that they offered — did anyone allow them the opportunity to speak for themselves.

I don’t believe they agreed to answer e-mail questions, but apparently Karen cannot understand the difference between interview and e-mail.

Please stop behaving as thought these women (McDonald and Chancy) have lied or stood you up. They offered, you were silent. They did not offer to answer e-mail questions, yet you insist that they should.

I have seen nothing in print (on this blog or others) that indicated McDonald/Chancy agreed to answer e-mail questions. You’re the coward, Karen. You’re the one who won’t allow them to sit in your podcast studio and talk. Come on.

  Cally Tyrol wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 11:36 am

Um, Wilma, just wondering if you read Karen’s explanation as to why she would not interview the authors on her podcast. Interviewing those women goes beyond the scope and vision of her podcast. She wanted to provide a forum for women to interact with the authors because of the lingering questions and inconsistencies that seem to exist between what’s in the book and other published writings of the authors. Their silence speaks volumes.

I see no reason to degenerate to name-calling. I think you owe Karen an apology.

  thatmom wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Wilma,

Here is the link to the thread Cally is talking about:
http://thatmom.wordpress.com/2007/11/29/a-little-podcast-history/

Be sure to read my last comment in that section where I talk about the “layers” of teaching that are apparent to anyone who will honestly evaluate the patriocentric teachings. I would be happy to chat about this with you after you read what I wrote.

  thatmom wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 5:20 pm

Johanna,

I would love to get your take on the book.. Feel free to comment here or drop me an e-mail at shesthatmom@gmail.com

  thatmom wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Rebecca, lets see, 9 husbands divided by 2 equals 4.5 husbands each. Yikes!!! I already have lived with one husband and 5 sons and that was wwwwaaaaayyyyy too much testosterone for me as is! I was telling someone the other day that I remember the boys all waiting for Clay to get home from work so they could wrestle and the middle of their bedroom floor was the perfect spot. I would be in the living room downstairs, watching the ceiling fan swaying and anticipating that one day those loud crashes would bring them all through a hole in the ceiling! Thankfully this old house was built like a tank and it never came to that!

Thanks for the humor this morning!

  Wilma wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 8:40 pm

No, Karen, you missed the point. You are accusing the authors of not responding to e-mails when, in fact, they never said they would. Your posts make the situation sound like you they owe you an answer and because they aren’t answering you, they have somehow been dishonest.

A discerning person could not possibly fall for you illogical line of reasoning. However, it appears that you have many followers and I feel terribly sorry that they have chosen to believe lies rather than truth.

  thatmom wrote @ January 29, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Wilma, I am trying to follow your logic, honestly I am. Let me say it one more time…..the authors came to my blog and offered to clear up any misunderstandings. I assumed that they sincerely wanted to do that…clear up any misunderstandings, that is. I have indicated that they have not been willing to do so as I have given them an open forum in which to provide answers to the many questions that have been raised. I never once claimed that they agreed to do so on my blog under my own terms. (as everyone recalls, they were attempting to establish their own terms on MY blog….can you imagine if I did the same on theirs? Who would allow such a thing?) I am only pointing out that the reasonable person would assume that if an author wanted to be clear and precise and “clear up any misunderstandings” they would jump at the chance to do so. As others have pointed out, the protocol for authors in the Christian world is for them to be as transparent as possible and willing to be straightforward. And typically that involves answering questions in written form, since, after all, their writings are also in written form.

  Wilma wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 2:46 am

I don’t think anyone would “jump at the chance” to clear up misunderstandings on your blog, Karen. You imply that authors are obligated to give answers. Authors write books. They don’t owe people further explanations.

I’m sorry you’re having trouble following the logic. I’m not surprised, however.

  thatmom wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 3:14 am

Wilma, do you honestly believe that Christians, whether they be authors or not, are not obligated to back up their teachings with Scripture? That is a shocking position to hold, Wilma, and certainly not a Biblical one either. In fact, the Apostle Paul, who was entrusted with the job of writing the majority of the New Testament epistles, invited his students to examine all his teachings and to prove them by the word of God. Why should today’s teachers be held to a lesser standard? Where is your Berean spirit? (If you believe you possess one and are open to defending the beliefs in this book, I would welcome your own responses to the many questions we have asked here.)

As far as discussing these things on my blog, as I recall, the authors made the offer to “clear up any misunderstandings” on this blog; it was their idea.

Wilma, I have clearly stated that my goal for this blog is to encourage real homeschooling moms with real encouragement. When I see teachings that do just the opposite of that, teachings that place man’s burdens on moms, calling them “part of the grand sweep of revelation” or “God’s plan for women since before the foundation of the world” etc.,when they cannot be proven, by Scripture, to be that, I cannot NOT speak out against such madness and will continue to do so.

  Johanna wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 4:04 am

“However, it appears that you have many followers and I feel terribly sorry that they have chosen to believe lies rather than truth.”

Rest assured, I do not claim to “follow” anyone but Jesus Christ. I just wanted to say that right off.

I am not believing or disbelieving anyone. I am trying to find out the TRUTH here. These writings and this “way of life” for lack of a better term, was introduced to me a couple of years ago. Something has nagged me about it for that same amount of time. There are pieces I agree with but there are other pieces I don’t understand. When I go to blogs, all I see are smiling women in flowing dresses and, in 90% of cases, are pregnant. Instead of coming away encouraged, I came away hurting. Hurting because, for me, the crutch of the matter isn’t the patriarchical debate; honestly, it isn’t. For me, it is….what is my worth to these women…my husband and I have been trying to have a baby for over 2 years; do I exist in their world? Or would I be whispered about behind my back as they speculate over what grievous sin I must’ve have committed to be “barren”? I honestly don’t know. I read through books such as “Passionate Housewives” or “Be Fruitful & Multiply” and everything is tied to being a wife AND mother. (Btw, if there are any ladies out there also struggling with infertility,I would not advise you to read that book. I’ve never felt so worthless.) That was one of my biggest problems with the “Passionate Housewives” book. I thought the book was primarily about WIVES. Silly me.

I realize this is a homeschooling moms’ blog so of course motherhood will be discussed. But I have never seen pregnancy and how many “arrows” you have equated with spirituality or used as God’s stamp of approval on a life. That is what is refreshing to me.

This turned into one bad ramble, I’m afraid. But it has been on my heart so long and my fingers took on a life of their own. lol

Anyway, Karen, those were my thoughts concerning the book!

  Lin wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 10:00 am

Johanna,

I can so relate to your situation. Even though I was not in Patriarchy I was in a very intense complimentarian church. Everything was about motherhood and children. Being older, I was so distressed about not getting pregnant. We tried for 7 years. I finally gave up and told the Lord I would be content in whatever situation I am in. Then a friend told me about an orphanage in the Crimea where many couples were adopting and we went through the whole process to prepare for the trip 11mos later. We could not go because I got pregnant and would have been at 8months!

All of this to say, my worth is not because of having a child. My duty is to raise her in the Lord and prepare her for His service, whatever that may be. I got away from the legalism of all the secondary doctrines that are not central to the Gospel. If what they teach is true then Mary Magdalene was in sin. Yet, the Lord chose her to be the first to tell the Good News! that is also MY duty. To tell others of the Good News of Christ. If anything, Jesus played down family to a certain extent. from the Jewish tradition of the time. Remember when they came to Him and said His mother and brothers were outside? He pointed to His disciples and said, “these are my mother and brothers’. He also said that the Gospel would divide families. And it does. Peter talks in the Gospel about leaving his family to follow Christ.

An old Puritan once wrote that if his children were all hanging on him, his wife by his side and Jesus came in, he would fling them all away and run to Christ.

I say all of this because we need a true perspective of scripture. When we have been around intense teaching that is secondary, it takes on a life of it’s own as you are well aware. it is NOT the full Gospel. It is exaggerated. There is nthing wrong with huge families. There is nothing wrong with being childless. When we can all accept and love each other in the Lord, all of this other stuff becomes a ‘loud gong’. It is not ‘love’.

Find some REAL brothers and sisters in the Lord who see your worth as a sister in Christ. The teaching you are in is a yoke of bondage that Christ set us free from. Remember Martha and Mary!

Grace and Peace to you.

  Corrie wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 10:30 am

“Please stop behaving as thought these women (McDonald and Chancy) have lied or stood you up. They offered, you were silent. They did not offer to answer e-mail questions, yet you insist that they should.

Hi Wilma,

You sound pretty fired-up about this. Maybe you need to just calm down and take a step back and look at this whole thing logically?

I am trying to understand your point here. They offered to be on Karen’s podcast to answer Karen’s questions (I assume that they weren’t also offering to call the shots and set the agenda for Karen’s podcast, too?) but they didn’t offer to answer a few questions via email?

Can you help me understand where you are coming from?

If they can’t even answer a couple of very simple, straight-forward questions via email then why would Karen think that they would bother to answer the questions she has for them on a podcast?

That just isn’t logical.

Also, imho, the whole thing is just not in accordance with Christian decorum. If they really wanted to do a podcast with Karen, they would have emailed her privately.

Karen requires ME to put into writing what I would roughly like to say, why wouldn’t she require that of them? If she had a question about something I have said in other venues, she would ask me and I would answer her BEFORE I did a podcast with her.

Can you tell me why it would be so hard for them to answer a couple of questions and then see from there if that would lead into a podcast? Wouldn’t it be logical to answer the questions FIRST before you publicly offer to do a podcast on someone else’s show?

“I have seen nothing in print (on this blog or others) that indicated McDonald/Chancy agreed to answer e-mail questions.”

It is called “good faith effort”. You want something in print? Well, in order to do a podcast with someone you need to know that they are not going to be evasive and that they are going to cooperate with the agenda of the HOSTESS and that they will make a good faith effort to answer the HOSTESS’S questions. If they can’t answer them via email then they certainly are NOT going to answer them on a podcast.

“You’re the coward, Karen. ”

Nice, Wilma. Your slip is showing.

  Kathleen (Kate) wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 10:50 am

Karen, you made a great point about the fact that we as Christians need to be transparent about our convictions and beliefs and see if they hold up to the light of Scripture.

Johanna, your thoughts about what others may think of you in light of the teachings they follow is the unnecessary division that comes from those teachings. I’ve shared the same sad thoughts about my value in a church filled with many families who hold to full-quiver teachings, and it does hurt. It’s only when my eyes are fixed firmly on my Jesus that the hurt subsides, or when I see the love of Jesus in my husband’s eyes toward me. That’s all that needs to matter, really.

Lin, you said:

“we need a true perspective of scripture. When we have been around intense teaching that is secondary, it takes on a life of it’s own as you are well aware. it is NOT the full Gospel. It is exaggerated. There is nthing wrong with huge families. There is nothing wrong with being childless. When we can all accept and love each other in the Lord, all of this other stuff becomes a ‘loud gong’. It is not ‘love’.”

Oh, Lin, AMEN! That was right on the target.

  Wilma wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 7:43 pm

The authors of PHDFG used lots of Scripture in their book to make their points. You need more?

What you women seem to want is to have the authors back up their book (as if they haven’t already done so), and then you will have their words in writing. At that point, you will have fodder for at least the next decade. You can then dissect their every word for your own enjoyment. I would make a guess that they know this and aren’t going to put their feet into a pool of piranhas.

Again, it’s obvious that you’re obligating them to do something based on your own thoughts and ideas. You can talk about “decorum” or “clearing things up”, but you’re doing it based on your own expectations and desires - self-centered a bit?

Have you thought about loving McDonald and Chancy? How about advancing your maturity rapidly by extending enormous grace to them? If they are weaker than you and are believing a lie, your interrogation efforts certainly aren’t a biblical tactic that will destroy their heresy and bring them to truth.

I pray that the Lord will silence your keyboards on this issue and that He will overwhelm you with sorrow for your ugly and hateful attitude toward others with whom you don’t agree. Yea, I even pray that he will destroy your ability to communicate if you insist on destroying the name of the gospel through discord among the brethren.

  Johanna wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 8:12 pm

When an author (or authors, in this case) make a referrence to Scripture, I will often look up the Scripture myself. If I think it’s taken out of context or if the point they are making isn’t exactly what that verse is saying, I will question it. It’s not feasible to expect to track down someone like Charles Stanley if I have a question about one of his books. So, the answer is to do more study into what the Word says on the subject. I would have LOVED to have heard from the authors from “Passionate Housewives” concerning some of the questions I had. Questions like…do you consider it a sin to disagree with your husband and voice that disagreement? Am I a white-washed feminist because I understand that some women, through circumstances not designed by them, are forced to work outside the home? Because I might consider leaving my child in a Mother’s Morning Out program once a month or so? It should not seen as an attack on them at all. I’m simply trying to understand what they wrote. If someone writes a book and then refuses to discuss/debate their position, honestly, that sends up more red flags to me than anything else.

  Lin wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 8:42 pm

“Have you thought about loving McDonald and Chancy? How about advancing your maturity rapidly by extending enormous grace to them?”

Wilma, you are being taught a serious lie by someone. It is not unloving to ask authors of public teaching to explain what they mean by certain terms or ask them about positions in their book that are different from positions they wrote about before.

You are being taught that it is a sin and lacking in Grace to disagree with someone you consider a earthly authority.. I am very concerned about you in this. Blindly following mere humans is very dangerous.

” If they are weaker than you and are believing a lie, your interrogation efforts certainly aren’t a biblical tactic that will destroy their heresy and bring them to truth.”

Wilma, why all the drama? Asking questions is ‘interrogation’? Actually, Karen has been extremely Biblical in this. She could have done just the opposite that she did and that would be lacking in Grace. She could have made up some cartoon metaphor like Stacy did but she did not. She was direct and loving.

Somehow, you WANT to make disagreeing and asking questions sinful. Nice try. but those of us who know scripture know that you would have a hard time explaining why Paul publicly rebuked Peter. or John wrote no so nice things about Diotrephes. Any Christian author who is sincere would be more than happy to define in detail what they wrote and why.

“I pray that the Lord will silence your keyboards on this issue and that He will overwhelm you with sorrow for your ugly and hateful attitude toward others with whom you don’t agree. Yea, I even pray that he will destroy your ability to communicate if you insist on destroying the name of the gospel through discord among the brethren.”

Oh Wilma! I am so sad that you have been taught that imprecatory prayers against a sister in Christ is of Christ. How sad. That is not scriptural or loving.

Are you reading your words here, Wilma? they are not of Christ. They are hateful. Did you know that if we do not love our ‘brethren’, it means we are not saved?

Please point out the false teaching of scripture you see here on this blog. Disagreeing and questioning is not sin. It is iron sharpening iron. The Bereans did it with Paul and were commended. Do you think Jenney and Stacy are above being questioned? Paul was thrilled they questioned him. It gave him a chance to further the gospel truth.

Wilma, do not follow man. Follow Christ. The Holy Spirit will teach you the truth of the scriptures if you sincerely seek truth.

  Wilma wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 10:22 pm

Thanks for the attempt, Lin. I can only give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere in your words.

However, I’ve never said that questioning and asking for clarification is sin. It is not. What is sin is slandering, making fun of, and degrading others. And if you go to Karen’s other blog, you’ll see plenty of that.

  thatmom wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 10:50 pm

Wilma,

I would like to ask you to e-mail we with a real e-mail address before you post here again.

While I welcome anonymous comments, the commenter cannot make personal accusations and not leave a real address in which to make contact with her.

Thanks.

  Wilma wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 11:02 pm

I’m very sorry, Karen. I don’t give it out.

I sorely wish you ladies would invest your time into something eternal that matters. Yes, doctrine matters. But haven’t you hammered this long enough? Isn’t there another author somewhere in the world with whom you can find a problem? Give it a rest! The authors aren’t responding — stop accusing them of not being willing to defend themselves. They said they would do it in an interview, not via e-mail. You don’t want to do an interview. End of story.

Bottom line: I perceive you to be a woman who gets excited over conflict. Fanning fires on your blog is what drives your day. The Lord has more for you than this.

  Cally Tyrol wrote @ January 30, 2008 at 11:07 pm

Wilma, Karen IS trying to give it a rest by not doing a podcast on this book.

I would heartily recommend that you read Corrie’s comment above- even she must put her thoughts in writing before appearing on Karen’s podcast.

Karen, you continue to inspire me with your grace under fire. Thank you consistently and courageously standing for the truth.

  thatmom wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 2:33 am

Johanna,

Thank you for sharing your very personal perspective with us on this book. I must admit that I cringed more than once as I read through the book and observed the sad attitude toward women who are not “normative” according to the VF standards. How thankful I am that the Lord has no such category. This very teaching places the authors in the Pharisee camp, as far as I am concerned. Jesus’ harshest words were for those who placed unbiblical burdens on the back of others and He made it very clear that their attitudes and teachings were not part of God’s will for believers.

I think one of the missing ingredients to this book, and one I am certain Corrie and I will touch on, is the concept of enjoying the seasons of life and the various callings the Lord gives to each of us. Johanna, the Lord may have plans for you to be a mother during a different season of life. But that doesn’t mean that this season is any less valuable to Him and, in fact, the Bible absolutely presents a different perspective on the matter, both through Paul’s admonitions and by the examples given of women on the pages of Scripture and how the Lord has used them mightily in kingdom work.

I felt a tremendous amount of sadness for those who are outside of the patriocentric paradigm as I read this book. The message is sent, loud and clear, that you are outside God’s will if you aren’t living like Stacy and Jennie. I am so sorry that you and others who don’t fit their paradigm, precious sisters who are part of the body of Christ and have so much to offer everyone, have been given this unbiblical message. It is stories like yours that inspire me to not give up challenging these teachings! {{{{{}}}}}

  Julie wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 3:23 am

Wilma-this is a very strange way of lovingly discussing your concerns with Karen. Sometimes we think we can say something anonymously to someone that we would never say to their face. If you would not say this stuff to her as your real identity (accusations like coward, saying the’s exciting conflict, that she’s illogical), then you should probably remain silent. Good grief. Can’t we all just get along???

Whether you like it or not, this book IS controversial. And I think it’s good for the body of Christ to discuss it, to search the scriptures like the Bereans did see if what Paul said was true. That’s all Karen is wanting to do.

I’ll look forward to your new podcasts, Karen. Your blog is a HUGE encouragement to me.

  Lynn wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 7:30 am

“I pray that the Lord will silence your keyboards on this issue and that He will overwhelm you with sorrow for your ugly and hateful attitude toward others with whom you don’t agree. Yea, I even pray that he will destroy your ability to communicate if you insist on destroying the name of the gospel through discord among the brethren.”

The author of these words is pointing a finger, and it appears to me that she has the other four fingers pointing right back at her.

Well, Wilma, this little imprecation of yours made me stomp my foot and shake (what’s left) of my curls and I just want to see if my computer blows up if I send this. If not, consider your prayer to not have availed much.

  Lynn wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 7:33 am

Well, my computer appears to still be in working order.

  Lynn wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 7:36 am

Not feeling overwhelmed by sorrow about expressing my opinions, beliefs, agreements, and disagreements yet, either.

  Corrie wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 7:50 am

Wilma,

I really do not know how to do irrational. Did you read what I wrote? Did you read this entry that Karen wrote? It doesn’t seem like you have. You seem to be upset about something that is not even real.

It is very easy to be nasty and rude and hypocritical all the while hiding behind a pseudonym, isn’t it?

I do see “ugly” and “hateful” but I just don’t see it in the places you are saying it exists.

When you called Karen a “coward” I really had to laugh! How ironic that a person who hides behind a fake name and refuses to identify herself calls other people “cowards”!! You have to admit, that is funny.

About other books? I have discussed other books and teachings and I will continue to do so. When I criticized the unbiblical teachings in Created To Be His Helpmeet I received the same slanderous accusations. I was called the same names. I was accused of being unspiritual and people prayed imprecatory prayers against me. This is nothing new. The same thing when I dared to examine Bill Gothard’s teachings. I could go on with many more examples.

What I can’t figure out is why so many people are so willing to defend a book, even going to the extreme of being irrational, but think that people who defend what the Bible actually teaches are hateful and ugly?

It reminds me of the Pharisees who gnashed their teeth and gnarled at Jesus because He refused to follow their extra-biblical manmade traditions. You ever notice how Jesus did most, if not all, of His healings on the Sabbath? How that must have chapped the Pharisee’s hide! They were so concerned about defending their own books that they couldn’t even recognize the Truth standing right in front of them because of their irrational zealotry towards their own presuppositions and traditions.

So, Wilma, praying down curses upon those who care about the truth and what the Word of God really teaches is nothing new.

I will come against any teaching that doesn’t line up with the Word of God. This book is just a drop in the sea of books and materials that misrepresent God’s word and have taken the traditions of man and presented them as the very precepts of God.

I still think that people who make it their business, and I mean LITERAL business, to focus on one specific area to the exclusion of all others is going to get quite off balance. You get a bad case of myopia. You can’t see clearly. You read every verse through the grid of your own pet doctrinal system.

People need to step back and start taking God’s word for what it is and reading the WHOLE counsel of His word. I am beginning to think that every Christian writer/author should be required to take some seminary level classes on systematic theology and the principles of hermeneutics before they are able to publish a book.

There are far too many people flocking to a book instead of the word of God and that is our problem. Where are all the fervent, exciting and life-changing testimonies coming from women after they studied the 4 Gospels? [crickets] Where are all the housewives who are buying cases of BIBLES to give out to their neighbors and friends? [crickets]

I want this to be the year where women will stop flocking to the next latest and greatest teaching to come down the pike and start pouring themselves into the actual scriptures. I have found that if one actually concentrates on the whole counsel of God’s word that we don’t need books telling us one person’s opinions on how we should do family and marriage.

Karen has brought up the “one another” verses in the Bible before. They have NOTHING to do with headship/submission and they make up a huge bulk of scriptural teaching as opposed to the teachings on so-called “patriarchy”. If a husband and wife one-anothered each other, served each other and submitted themselves to Christ, then all these other teachings are a waste of precious time and they are actually steering people AWAY from what will cure their family problems.

As Julie said, this book is controversial and the authors and those who promote actually say it. Why do so many people have their undies in a bundle because there happens to be a little discussion concerning the term “white-washed feminists” that overshadows this book.

It is okay to impugn a woman because she has a marble sink but we can’t question people who have set themselves up as teachers/leaders over God’s people? Are we to just blindly accept everyone who claims to have the truth?

This is all just so backwards.

  Jen wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Just a quick observation. I do believe that when authors go out and give interviews IRL that they are not normally required to give all their answers in writing ahead of time. One of the purposes of the interview is to see how the author thinks on his/her feet when asked questions about what they have written and how it affects their readers. I don’t watch TV interview shows, but I just can’t imagine any of them requiring all the answers in writing ahead of time. If what Jennie and Stacy said at the end of their book was true about why it took them so long to write it in the first place, then surely they do not have the time to respond in writing to all questions either, nor are they obligated to.

I was disappointed that Karen did not take them up on their offer to do a podcast. To be clear, I thought it might be nice to have Karen moderate and have two people who were concerned about the book — perhaps Spunky and Corrie — dialog with Jennie and Stacy on a podcast. That really is not an unreasonable request from the authors who were willing to discuss the issues.

  thatmom wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Once again, Jen, what you believe is “not an unreasonable request” violates my personal convictions, goals and objectives for my podcast and neither myself or my husband who co-produces the podcast believe it would meet those standards.

  thatmom wrote @ January 31, 2008 at 11:17 pm

Lynn, your thoughts on imprecatory prayers are quite interesting. A few months ago I saw a t-shirt that said “don’t get even, get imprecatory.”

I praise God that we are in a new covenant, a new relationship with Him through Jesus Christ and that, by grace, He gently leads and cares for His own. We cannot be harmed by the wishful curses of those who dislike us and to think otherwise is to embrace a type of voodoo that should be no part of the life of a follower of Jesus.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

Matthew 5:38-45

  Corrie wrote @ February 1, 2008 at 3:40 am

Jen,

“Just a quick observation. I do believe that when authors go out and give interviews IRL that they are not normally required to give all their answers in writing ahead of time.”

No one said that they had to answer all her questions. But, come on! A couple? I had ONE question I asked via private email and that was NEVER answered. And that question came out of a statement written to ME in private email. It would have taken a minute and considering all the time we spent discussing other very non-essential issues where I took MY TIME to answer the questions posed to me withOUT being evasive… well, this just doesn’t fly.

“One of the purposes of the interview is to see how the author thinks on his/her feet when asked questions about what they have written and how it affects their readers.”

Whose purpose? That isn’t the purpose of Karen’s podcast! Are we forgetting that Karen never extended an invitation but that this so-called “offer” was foisted on her publicly? It certainly looked like a tag-team, pre-meditated event, too. This is Karen’s living room, per se, and she gets to decide what the purpose is, not anyone elese.

I don’t think Karen is concerned with how an author thinks on their feet. I think she is more concerned with encouraging the average homeschool mom. I would think that Karen would be impressed with any author who would graciously reply to a simple question. I know I have written Carolyn Custis James to ask her a question about something she said and she graciously replied.

“I don’t watch TV interview shows, but I just can’t imagine any of them requiring all the answers in writing ahead of time.”

Again, this isn’t what was required. Also, if you did watch an interview, you would see that the host of the show is the one who calls the shots and leads the interview process. This is all moot since this whole thing is farcical. Stacy came to this blog, posted on TWO different threads about how she and Jenny would love to do a podcast with Karen. And then some “anonymous person “immediately, on both threads. applauded the idea. Not very subtle.

Also, the “not having time thing” just doesn’t fly. I have 10 children and a busy household and I have time to answer questions when people ask me. This is a bogus excuse. If they don’t have time to answer a couple of questions concerning some term they coined or something they said in a book, then they don’t have time to write it in the first place. They are responsible to their readers and this is their Christian duty to make sure that their teachings are understood and clear. It seems to me that a Christian would go through great lengths to try and clear up any misconceptions. Look at Gorgie Porgie…..I mean John Stackhouse! He certainly is a busy man and he still takes the time to try and answer the questions posed to him.

There has been plenty of time to write numerous blog posts and parodies of “Dr. Seuss” when it would have taken less than 3 minutes to answer ONE question. Willing to discuss the issues? I haven’t seen it. Where I come from, talk is cheap and the proof is in the pudding. Actions speak louder than words and so do track records where a consistent pattern clearly has emerged.

Frankly, why is it okay for Karen to waste her time going through all the trouble to try and do a podcast with someone who has refused to even make an effort to answer one or two very simple questions? Surely Jenny and Stacy are NO busier nor do they have less hours in their day or their time is no more valuable?

Truthfully, I could care less about the book or what is written in it. After reading it and knowing how these trends come and go like the seasons, this book will be a foggy memory soon. I would rather concentrate on teaching women the truth and what the Bible DOES say and dispelling the myths and lies being taught under the guise of “biblical patriarchy” than spending any more time trying to figure out what the nebulous back-handed insults mean.

  Jen wrote @ February 1, 2008 at 5:58 am

Corrie, I think your idea about concentrating on what you believe the Bible does say is an excellent idea. I look forward to hearing you both on those podcasts.

  Lin wrote @ February 2, 2008 at 2:00 am

“I don’t watch TV interview shows, but I just can’t imagine any of them requiring all the answers in writing ahead of time.”

Actually, depending on the status of the person being interviewd, they can require the questions to asked ahead of time. Hillary Clinton used to do this all the time until she ran for Senator. Once she put her hat in the ring, those days were over.

I am afraid Jenney and Stacy don’t fall within this category.

“That really is not an unreasonable request from the authors who were willing to discuss the issues.”

I got a huge chuckle out of this one. They have done nothing BUT totally avoid answering questions UNLESS they can control the environment in which they are asked. That is their right…but please don’t call it ‘reasonable and willing to discuss the issues’, because it is not.

As a matter of fact, lots of their writings seemed to disappear off the internet after questions were asked that they did not answer.

However, asking them to answer questions in writing here, after Stacy commented, was certainly not unreasonable. Inviting herself to be on Karen’s podcast was a bit overbearing, though.

  Lin wrote @ February 2, 2008 at 2:03 am

“After reading it and knowing how these trends come and go like the seasons, this book will be a foggy memory soon.”

I agree totally. They are only competing with 10,000 other books on this and related subjects in the Christian book market.

It is best to spot a counterfeit by studying the real thing, anyway.

  Lynn wrote @ February 2, 2008 at 4:17 am

I haven’t been looking at the Peoria Journal Star conversation, but checked in today, was surprised that many comments had been deleted. All but Lin’s, one of Cindy K.’s, and all of mine remain.

The reason I went there is a woman named Dawn (her comments were deleted) provided a quote where Jennie appeared to give a clarification about working wives and feminism, but in truth it was no clarification at all, because her statement was too general and didn’t exclude working men and single women:

http://www.pjstar.com/stories/011208/REL_BFEKDQA9.040.php

“Dawn, you provided a quote where Jennie says this:

“We know that not everyone working a job outside the home is a feminist.”

OK, . . . I find this statement to not clarify things one bit.

Men work outside the home. So do single women. So do married women. That statement doesn’t clarify for me the one question I do have — Jennie’s claim that married women who work outside the home are blaspheming Scripture. Are they, or aren’t they?

Her statement above said “everyone” and didn’t differentiate the sexes or marital state, so that quote is no clarification at all. I see that statement as somewhat of an obfuscation.

The question is — does Jennie claim that all married women who work outside the home are blaspheming Scripture, according to her lengthy statement on Vision Forum’s site? Given that [on the Vision Forum website] she [explicitly] says wives who work outside the home are blaspheming Scripture, and are also “serving two masters” (implication is that is wrong, too) it is pretty clear to me she meant to apply this teaching to all wives in all circumstances.

Thank you for the quote, but that didn’t clarify her claims of blasphemy.”

  Lynn wrote @ February 2, 2008 at 4:29 am

Wilma, my computer still hasn’t blown up, and my keyboard is still in working order . . . and I still enjoy discussing these issues from time to time. No regrets.

Many years ago I heard John MacArthur speak against wives who work outside the home, and I well remember afterward seeing a tearful young mother, whose husband was employed, but the pay scale was extremely low (a Christian ministry) and she was in tears because she worked part-time to help make ends meet for them, and told me she was crying because of what MacArthur had preached.

At that time, I felt a resolve to speak out against making blanket accusations against all working wives. At this moment I can’t recollect what it was MacArthur said, but I do remember thinking his remarks were too broad brushed and did not account for a sizeable percentage of women “out there.”

I very well know what Jennie has said about the subject, and I’m just following my resolve to speak about it, in case there are any women out there wanting to do the best for their families, who have made the decision to work to help their families, who might feel like dirt after hearing MacArthur’s old sermon, or reading Jennie’s Vision Forum article. It is a serious thing to define something as sin where God has not defined it as sin . . . which is what happens when you say that working wives blaspheme Scripture.

  Cindy Kunsman wrote @ February 2, 2008 at 5:38 am

Wilma,

When people at odds communicate, conventional wisdom dictates that they give themselves some distance and attempt communication in a safer forum, thus facilitating the target goal — that of communication. I’m also reminded of an old joke about how porcupines become intimate — very carefully. Given the polemic and aggressive responses typified by the patriarchy movement, there is wisdom in distance, particularly when there is a reasonable forum in which to communicate.

I wonder if you might be willing to post your own answers the questions posed to Stacy? I’ve got a long list of my own posted on this site (with easy reference to them in the blog post concerning the Peoria Star Journal).

I find it very interesting to note that I’ve only ever seen the abbreviation “PHDFG” used twice. Is your slip showing? Hmmm. Perhaps your own, anonymous answers to the questions posed to Stacy will suffice quite well!

Actually, I would be very interested to hear a response to these questions from anyone holding ot the patriarchical view, especially the questions concerning the Trinity.

  Jim K. wrote @ February 2, 2008 at 8:16 am

Hi Karen (and Corrie),

Okay for a guy to chime in here? I’m a frequent listener of the podcasts and I appreciate the loving and forthright manner in which you’ve dealt with these issues concerning patriocentricity. I don’t see any hatred coming from you in the least; rather I see loving concern for your fellow sisters in Christ. I say bravo - well done. Keep it up, and if your keyboard does blow up I’ll loan you one because you probably needed a new one anyway.

At first I was a little disappointed that you weren’t going to review the book on the podcast but I see your reasoning behind it. Better to use the airtime to offer balanced biblical encouragement to mothers and let the excellence of those efforts be your protest against the stifling bondage of patriocentric thought. There’s a big difference between patriocentricity and biblical headship. The former is rooted in insecurity and a self-serving need to make your “underlings” serve you and your purposes. The latter is rooted in loving, lay-down-your-life servant leadership, not top-down dominion.

Jim K.

  thatmom wrote @ February 5, 2008 at 5:37 am

Hi Jim,

Glad to have you on the blog and you and your comments are welcome any time! My husband just replaced the keyboard a couple weeks ago so I think I am good to go but thanks for the offer!

I still plan to write a review of the book at some point and will post it, probably in the context of reviewing a few other books written for wives and moms. There are some good ones out there and I would love to be able to recommend them.

  thatmom wrote @ February 5, 2008 at 5:39 am

Oh, and, let me add that I recorded the interview with Corrie last weekend and am really excited about it. We have so much material that I hate to edit it. We will be touching on a few topics that we haven’t yet addressed here so I can’t wait to upload the first one!

  Lynn wrote @ February 5, 2008 at 4:46 pm

Looking forward to hearing both your voices in a podcast! Also for your thoughts on the many other books on Christian womanhood that are out there.

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